The Jesus Joint

I would argue the unforgivable aspect but I would ave to agree with the latter part. The world really would be better off if we were all followers of Christ. It would be better off without people who constantly drag down the name of Christ. However, as I said, there is nothing that is unforgivable...except for the fact that he is now past the point of forgiveness. As it is appointed unto man once to die, but after this, the judgment.

That's a really good analysis, Travis

unforgivable in God's eyes and unforgivable in the eyes of man are completely different, even though the judgement of God is the only one that matters.

No. Unforgiveness is a sin that eats away at you. It is very bitter. It's like drinking poison and hoping the other person dies. It is awful, and really has no place in a Christian's life. God calls us to forgive each other.

thats pretty much irrelevant to what you quoted me saying, but i get what you meant. and it doesnt eat away at me, and just because i dont forgive someone for something is not wishing their death. in some cases maybe, but you cant say that as a blanket statement.

It's not irrelevant at all. You said you cannot forgive MJ for things he has allegedly done; I quoted from the Bible and Jesus said we are to forgive others. The whole tone of your initial post bothered me, as you know by now. I'm simply bringing a Scriptural relevance to the comment you made.

We actually are called to forgive all people for all wrongs committed. God forgave us so who are we to hold a grudge? It can be difficult at times but that is because we are wretched fallen beings. It is much more difficult to cling to God's standards.

I'd just like to interject a little something here. It's not really DJ's place to forgive because he was not the one sinned against. Along the same vein, it /is/ his place to be mad that MJ did what he did (if he was guilty) because it's our place as Christians to be upset about sin.

Forgiveness in the Bible talks about personal forgiveness when someone sins against us. We need to have a spirit of forgiveness that is willing to extend to others the same forgiveness Christ extended to us. As for sins not committed against us personally, it's our job to be willing to share the Gospel with them, even though we feel they do not "deserve" salvation. After all, none of us deserve salvation at all. However, this doesn't really apply to someone who is already dead.

Yes.



I disagree with you. He's talking about not forgiving someone, whether the sin was committed against him personally or not. Say, for example, his sister or girlfriend was raped. They go to court and the rapist is there. The rape was not committed on him personally, but someone he knows was harmed. Difficult as it may be, DJ extends forgiveness, which would be a very loving, Christ-like, and merciful thing to do and sets an example like Jesus did. The rapist is still a rapist, but he was forgiven by someone who didn't know him. Same thing here - none of us knew Jackson, but do we (or did we) forgive him, or call his alleged crimes unforgivable and carry that unforgiveness with us forever?

1) But if it was a family member, it in a sense is still "personal." If the crime is committed against a stranger, I think it's different, but I'll accept that point as debatable (as opposed to my other points).
2) Another distinction is that Christ does not actually forgive everyone. He only forgives those who believe and repent.
3) Biblical forgiveness is not just something we do to feel better about ourselves. It's to restore a relationship. When Christ forgives us, the forgiveness has the goal of reconciliation. Forgiveness isn't an end in and of itself. It's a means to restoration. In this sense, it's impossible to forgive someone who is dead.
4) Bitterness can last after the time for forgiveness has passed. In this case, I don't think the solution is to try to extend forgiveness (which is not possible after one party has died) but rather to a) mourn the sin in the world and in our own lives and b) celebrate the grace extended to us through the cross. Sin can be hated and mourned, but Biblical mourning does not include bitterness. Whether or not someone is bitter, though there can be outward signs, is between a person and God.

I think that DJ can have a better attitude towards the late MJ, but I also think that you guys are coming down a bit hard on him. Finding "forgiveness" for someone like MJ is a decent exercise in learning to find forgiveness for people who have actually wronged you. At the same time, hating the sin of rape (especially of children) is also a good exercise in identifying sins in our own lives to hate and repenting in those areas.

1) Whether or not it is personal has no bearing on forgiveness. If there is potential for us to harbor bitterness in any way, shape, or form, it has just become personal anyway. Even an opinion of someone can be personal.

2) We are not Christ. We are called to forgive all. My forgiveness does not have anything to do with a man's salvation or forgiveness of sins. It has to do with the cleansing of my own heart.

3) Bitterness detracts from our relationship with God. It is a poison to our soul. MJ may be dead but bitterness will remain until we forgive.

4) If bitterness remains, the time for forgiveness has not passed. It may ave no bearing on the other person but that is not the goal of forgiveness anyway when it comes to our command to forgive others. It is always an internal thing that can have external benefits at times. If you forgive a rapist, he may not care. However, if you truly forgave him, the change in your life will be immense. Again, forgiveness is not always meant for the other party when it comes from us.

I can still be disgusted by what people do yet not hold any bitterness against them. God still hates sin and we sin daily. However, He does not hold it against us or harbor bitterness toward us.

not only would that person never have forgivness in my eyes, the simple fact of you bringing that up makes me sick to my stomach and i would appreciate if you would think about what you write before you post it.

^ Well, I was making a point... and the very fact that it does upset you so much says how much forgiveness would be needed on your part. People don't just extend forgiveness and it means nothing, It means something. It's very important, and a disciple/follower of Christ is called to do that.

Sorry if it hurt you; obviously, I meant no offense but was simply using an extreme scenario to make an important point.

I have to agree that we should forgive regardless of the circumstances... this of course is often easier said than done, especially when it is against us or those we love. Sometimes we must swallow our pride and do what seems unnatural to us. We are a fallen people so of course forgiveness seems unnatural to us. However should we expect God to forgive us when we ourselves are not able to forgive others?

*Edit* welcome back DJ

point taken, but the carefree air with which you schemed up that scenario was rather disgusting. im sure if i came up with some scenario regarding - for instance - your son, and maybe him getting into a car wreck from a drunk driver and dying you wouldn't be so open to the discussion of that, regardless of what point i was trying to make regarding God's forgivness and it's relevance to man's.

sup tony.